I'm checking my MediaPost "Search Insider" subscription email this morning and I come across this article about SEO-ers whose main goals are to become famous, as opposed to more sensible albeit boring goals such as providing a good quality product or service. I felt my stomach grumble as memories surfaced of an experience in the last year where I believe I was burned by just such an organization, although it was with a pay-per-click adversiting service firm. But I believe the same type of bravado-seeking exists in both areas, since it's all somewhat new and uncharted territory.
So, at the time I did extensive research to find a pay-per-click advertising organization for my current employer, an ecommerce company, whose current pay-per-click advertising, although clearly not running at top efficiency, was the main source of traffic for their website, so certainly of core importance. We did not have the resources or expertise internally to handle the needed improvements, although I had personally handled a few PPC campaigns in the past and knew the basic ropes, so I could speak intelligently enough on the subject. I contacted references, I read the trade opinions, I scoured company websites, compared pricing, and spent hours on the phone with their sales people. In the end I picked a big glossy Inc500 company, the CEO a reknowned 'expert' in the field, that was whopping the charts getting big clients and doing great things. They gave us a great deal and I really liked my contact, who seemed to know how important it all was to us, got to the point and knew her stuff.
Our campaign started fantastically; something like 4-500% return on investment the first month. WOW! Things were looking good. Then my contact informed me she was leaving the company to spend more time with her kids, which of course I can understand. Unfortunately I took an instant distrust to the guy that took over in her place; one of those types that likes to hear themselves talk. (I am the type of person who wants to get the business done and get busy working; time is money, or time is with my family. And I have very little patience for anyone who does not appreciate this.) Well, they subsequently tanked our click ads and our internet ranking went down the drain, and it was a very painful thing to endure. This was just over the span of a couple of months, but it was devastating to the little company, and didn't make me look good. Of course there were other things at play such as a decrease in consumer spending, general economic downturn, competitor moves, my own distractions, but I can't discount the role this service provider played. But, as the old saying goes, if it doesn't kill you it only makes you stronger. That's what my guru tells me to chant whenenver I start to think of this experience, haha.
Part of the problem was that this company charged us based on a percentage of our spend. That clearly means that they're not going to be spending as much time on your account than the higher spenders, but of course they're not telling you that; supposedly they've got someone on your account every day. At the time all of the firms I talked to charged this way. When I got around to trying to switch, they had already figured out the problem and unfairness about that pricing scheme, and wanted a minimum monthly budget for said services. Made sense to me. We did have a sizable monthly spend, but probably just on the high end of the little guys.
So I learned sevaral other things from this experience, regarding the outsourcing of your core marketing activities such as PPC that I can share. First, just because the CEO is a gargantuan expert doesn't mean everyone in the company is! It's probably hard for these companies to find people with solid experience, since it's a relatively new field. Ask your sales person and everyone who will be working on your project what their actual experience and results have been. Second, make sure you trust who you're talking to at the company. Trust your intuition and get that person off your team immediately if you don't like them. If you don't feel right about it there's probably a good reason for that. Third, determine ahead of time what is your maximum drop allowance. E.g. if numbers are dropping after a week, or month, you give the service provider another week, or month, to boost up the numbers or they're out. Make sure everyone who needs to know at your company and theirs knows this ahead of time, and don't let your provider determine this for you. Fourth, have a plan in place whenever you make a big change like this that will support any drop in traffic from your normal levels of clicks. Perhaps ramp up some of your other tried and true marketing/advertising activities concurrently. Finally, at least for the first few months, make sure someone is checking on your account every day (or other time period acceptable to you) and not just blowing pleasantries in your ears. If your team members are all working on several projects, some that may be more high-profile than yours, you have to make sure they're not going to let yours fall through the cracks.
These things are probably obvious to the big marketers at the big firms but when you're running a small business with a hundred things to manage, you might miss it.
Innucopia is Amy McMorrow Hunter's website and blog. Innucopia means 'cornucopia of innovation.'
Saturday, February 23, 2008
Friday, February 22, 2008
This blog is quickly becoming an extention of my own personal attempts to maintain a balance between my work and the rest of my life. This is something essential that a lot of people may miss because life goes so fast. I have had the luck to always appreciate how fast especially the good times go, after having the privilege to experience, honestly, so many weddings of my close family and friends early on. Those wedding weekends always fly. So by the time I was half way through those I was always reminding everyone not to forget that it was going to be over before they know it. I'm sure I was very annoying.
Also, I got to live in Europe for seven years, and experience a completely different culture. People would always ask me what was different to live there, and I would always have to say there is not any one big thing, but every single thing is a little bit different. Those difference, combined, are large and most people don't realize or appreciate that, again probably because life moves so fast and who has seven years to sit and think about it? But one thing that was different was just how people take time to sit and be with friends and family even if just for a cup of coffee, and to have those nice vacations and the freedom to stay home if you were sick. Honestly, things like not having to worry about health care does in fact give you more space in your brain to think about other things.
So today I got on this site and started watching some of these videos. There is a series with Harvard lecturer Tal Ben-Shaher, and in one he is talking about 5 steps to happiness, although he was put on the spot and he only gave four. The first was to simplify, don't try to do everything, learn how to say no. The second was the mind-body connection, keep your body happy with exercise and it will feed your mind. Third was don't fear painful emotions, because if you don't feel or express those you are either a psychopath or dead. Fourth, appreciate what you have. Appreciation is good because it means giving thanks, but also leads to growth because it gives us direction. Good stuff!
Also, I got to live in Europe for seven years, and experience a completely different culture. People would always ask me what was different to live there, and I would always have to say there is not any one big thing, but every single thing is a little bit different. Those difference, combined, are large and most people don't realize or appreciate that, again probably because life moves so fast and who has seven years to sit and think about it? But one thing that was different was just how people take time to sit and be with friends and family even if just for a cup of coffee, and to have those nice vacations and the freedom to stay home if you were sick. Honestly, things like not having to worry about health care does in fact give you more space in your brain to think about other things.
So today I got on this site and started watching some of these videos. There is a series with Harvard lecturer Tal Ben-Shaher, and in one he is talking about 5 steps to happiness, although he was put on the spot and he only gave four. The first was to simplify, don't try to do everything, learn how to say no. The second was the mind-body connection, keep your body happy with exercise and it will feed your mind. Third was don't fear painful emotions, because if you don't feel or express those you are either a psychopath or dead. Fourth, appreciate what you have. Appreciation is good because it means giving thanks, but also leads to growth because it gives us direction. Good stuff!
Thursday, February 21, 2008
I have recently had two different people, artists, tell me that they could not update their website without paying their web developer, so they weren't doing it or they were having to cough up the dough. There are solutions for this nowadays. You can get a content management system installed on your website from the very start. If you already have a site and need to switch to something that you can manage and easily update without having to know anything about html, consider something like LightCMS or have your developer consider it. Set up something simple that you can easily go in and edit. Up to date, relevant and useful information is more important to people with limited time and attention span who become more and more familiar with the way the web works than flashiness.
More useful information for today: How not to be annoying.
More useful information for today: How not to be annoying.
Wednesday, February 20, 2008
What is that old saying, something about how inactivity breeds wickedness or something like that? Anyway we have been stuck inside, unable to even get out of our driveway due to a debilitating ice storm, most of last week. It's amazing how you take something like being able to get out of your house for granted. At the same time I was fighting a bout with the flu during which I couldn't breathe through my nose for almost two weeks. Another thing we almost always take for granted.
Luckily I have learned a thing or two in life, enough to know never to take time with people you love for granted. And do everything to love your work or at least do a good job at it so you can feel good about it. I've been thinking about all this but now I've gotten the kick to write it down after a friend forwarded me this link, a video presentation about how to live your life, among other things. Well worth watching.
In the meantime I have decided on an additional course of action for my business. I'll not only be beautifying southern Illinois with presentable online presences, but also by supplying art to walls. I've been getting more and more involved with art ever since I moved to southern Illinois, and things are just kind of falling into place. More later.
Luckily I have learned a thing or two in life, enough to know never to take time with people you love for granted. And do everything to love your work or at least do a good job at it so you can feel good about it. I've been thinking about all this but now I've gotten the kick to write it down after a friend forwarded me this link, a video presentation about how to live your life, among other things. Well worth watching.
In the meantime I have decided on an additional course of action for my business. I'll not only be beautifying southern Illinois with presentable online presences, but also by supplying art to walls. I've been getting more and more involved with art ever since I moved to southern Illinois, and things are just kind of falling into place. More later.
Monday, January 28, 2008
For a little Monday-boost, here's a great article by Max Kalehoff which discusses quotes from Einstein and how they apply not only to the world of science, but to business, marketing, and sometimes life in general. Inspiring!
Thursday, January 17, 2008
OK I just want to start to see if I can have some fun here. Any business like Innucopia, that is: an independent contractor or business that has to depend on businesses and individuals that need their services, knows how thankless it is when you're trying to get started and looking for contracts, or once a main contract runs out and you have to start all over if you haven't been careful. So if you can't get contracts you start thinking that you better find a job until you can line up some contracts, and job searching is about as rewarding as searching for contracts.
I can tell you all out there that it's about ten times worse when you're working somewhere like southern Illinois, with a chronically depressed economy that depends on the local university and the always-struggling but lovely tourism industry, regardless of your past experience or credentials. Of course it's always possible that I'm just too picky (can't take the insurance sales opportunity) or don't have the right credentials (don't have a nursing degree or commercial drivers license). Looking for a job and contracts in a place like this is very challenging, and I ran across this video today that kind of sums up some of my feelings about it. I'm definitely going to check out simplyhired.com and I'll let you know how it goes. As long as I'm talking about this today I might as well include this ConsumerResearch.org link which talks about some job search sites. This was not my idea originally either, about the southern Illinois business scene I mean, my previous contractor and one of the smartest guys I know warned me about how it is around here. He moved to Oregon last year.
I've done elance, probably not as vehemently as I could, but it's cut throat out there, you've gotta bid $100 for jobs that will probably take you a week if you want to win the bid. Maybe I'm not understanding it correclty. I've already been on Monster for years, and I have had very few contacts there. Craigslist looks like a haven for the scheisters, I can find enough of that everywhere else. I search the local newspaper and community sites. LinkedIn.com is nice but most of my contacts there are from Belgium or Seattle or somewhere distant. Doesn't mean that won't be helpful someday; my lovely and brilliant friend Caterina Saraceno recommended me on there a few days ago so we'll see if that makes any waves. I canvas everyone I know or have met over the years. I get my website link in my emails, I'm starting to blog again. This is a full time job, but I technically have no job.:)
I have been here before, and I just have a feeling that I'm not the only one in this boat. So I'm going to start writing about my expeirences just in case they might be useful for anyone else. If anyone else knows of a blog like this or wants to share experiences or just tell me to quit whining, please let me know.
I have also been reading for years about outsoucing, so many jobs going overseas and wondering what everyone was going to do. How can a middle class person survive these days; unless you're able to have two incomes to cover costs it seems impossible to have a comfortable life to me, I mean unless you're a student or a single living the good free life I suppose. Or you have to have a job on the side to make some extra income. Everyone I know talks about it or does this. Most people are going to have to reinvent themselves and make their own way as far as I can tell.
So I guess I'm going to try and help some people along as I help myself. I've got a girlfriend that wants to start an online gift basket business, and some friends I just sat with last night who are going to be opening another lodging establishment here locally. It seems I can be of some service to them because I have been teaching myself about html and web design, online and email marketing for the past five years and I can wade through the mumbo jumbo and be straight about the real solutions they've got. I'm not someone who believes you've got to spend thousands on a website if you're a small or just starting out business. There are so many things you can do to make a good website these days on the cheap and still good quality. Of course once you get the website built there are lots of other things to do, SEO, getting reciprocal links, etc., etc....Here we go!
I can tell you all out there that it's about ten times worse when you're working somewhere like southern Illinois, with a chronically depressed economy that depends on the local university and the always-struggling but lovely tourism industry, regardless of your past experience or credentials. Of course it's always possible that I'm just too picky (can't take the insurance sales opportunity) or don't have the right credentials (don't have a nursing degree or commercial drivers license). Looking for a job and contracts in a place like this is very challenging, and I ran across this video today that kind of sums up some of my feelings about it. I'm definitely going to check out simplyhired.com and I'll let you know how it goes. As long as I'm talking about this today I might as well include this ConsumerResearch.org link which talks about some job search sites. This was not my idea originally either, about the southern Illinois business scene I mean, my previous contractor and one of the smartest guys I know warned me about how it is around here. He moved to Oregon last year.
I've done elance, probably not as vehemently as I could, but it's cut throat out there, you've gotta bid $100 for jobs that will probably take you a week if you want to win the bid. Maybe I'm not understanding it correclty. I've already been on Monster for years, and I have had very few contacts there. Craigslist looks like a haven for the scheisters, I can find enough of that everywhere else. I search the local newspaper and community sites. LinkedIn.com is nice but most of my contacts there are from Belgium or Seattle or somewhere distant. Doesn't mean that won't be helpful someday; my lovely and brilliant friend Caterina Saraceno recommended me on there a few days ago so we'll see if that makes any waves. I canvas everyone I know or have met over the years. I get my website link in my emails, I'm starting to blog again. This is a full time job, but I technically have no job.:)
I have been here before, and I just have a feeling that I'm not the only one in this boat. So I'm going to start writing about my expeirences just in case they might be useful for anyone else. If anyone else knows of a blog like this or wants to share experiences or just tell me to quit whining, please let me know.
I have also been reading for years about outsoucing, so many jobs going overseas and wondering what everyone was going to do. How can a middle class person survive these days; unless you're able to have two incomes to cover costs it seems impossible to have a comfortable life to me, I mean unless you're a student or a single living the good free life I suppose. Or you have to have a job on the side to make some extra income. Everyone I know talks about it or does this. Most people are going to have to reinvent themselves and make their own way as far as I can tell.
So I guess I'm going to try and help some people along as I help myself. I've got a girlfriend that wants to start an online gift basket business, and some friends I just sat with last night who are going to be opening another lodging establishment here locally. It seems I can be of some service to them because I have been teaching myself about html and web design, online and email marketing for the past five years and I can wade through the mumbo jumbo and be straight about the real solutions they've got. I'm not someone who believes you've got to spend thousands on a website if you're a small or just starting out business. There are so many things you can do to make a good website these days on the cheap and still good quality. Of course once you get the website built there are lots of other things to do, SEO, getting reciprocal links, etc., etc....Here we go!
Sunday, January 13, 2008
I was swallowed up by a client in 2007 but now Innucopia's back. Check out the new "Tools" page on my website that includes helpful links to affordable and efficient business services.
Monday, January 08, 2007
I've added some info on innucopia.com about the new Addemar 2 here. It's impossible to really impart the full signifcance of the changes. In short, the new Addemar 2 in on par with the best email marketing offerings available in the US, and it's got a style (due to its European influence) that's often lacking from its American counterparts. Email marketing is not dead, it's not going away, and in order to get on top of the crop, email marketers will need an edge to set them apart in the crowded email box. Enter Addemar 2.
It's a great improvement over the previous version, and I know that the folks in Belgium aren't done yet. I have to say hats off to them! I'm really looking forward to see what they come up with next. Stay tuned for some screen shots from the new version.
It's a great improvement over the previous version, and I know that the folks in Belgium aren't done yet. I have to say hats off to them! I'm really looking forward to see what they come up with next. Stay tuned for some screen shots from the new version.
Wednesday, January 03, 2007
The new year is here. I've emerged from the abyss (wonderful abyss that is) that is my family holiday, and I'm back in full swing. Lots of great things planned for this year, including
- The launch of an upgraded Addemar version for my existing customers,
- A new Addemar Agency version for web, media and communication businesses, and
- Lots of new activity on southernillinoisspecialties.com, a new Innucopia service for craftspeople, artists and specialty business owners in southern Illinois.
Monday, November 20, 2006
Just when I thought I knew everything, now they say maybe what you know isn't true! Nice post today on MediaPost's Email Insider.
Don't Believe Everything You Hear
by David Baker, Monday, November 20, 2006
Don't Believe Everything You Hear
by David Baker, Monday, November 20, 2006
The moral of this urban legend is, use best practices, studies, and guidance from the experts as a starting point, but don't consider their advice to be absolute. You need to adjust your e-mail for your target audience and for what you want to achieve. Most importantly, test, test, and test some more.
Friday, November 10, 2006
Some notes for retailers...
Ok, now I spend a lot of time talking about best practices, such as having a consistent mailing schedule, personalizing whenever possible, putting your company name in the subject, keeping important information "above the fold," etc. I'm still learning myself every day as I work with my clients and scan the news and blog reports. Today I came across some best practice information including statistics on "send to a friend" (the November 2 post) for online retailers. Although this is a great way to build your email list, many emailers aren't using it yet, and those that are don't always have the process down pat yet. By the way, in case you didn't know it, Email Analyst has shown a direct correlation between email sends and web traffic.
Ok, now I spend a lot of time talking about best practices, such as having a consistent mailing schedule, personalizing whenever possible, putting your company name in the subject, keeping important information "above the fold," etc. I'm still learning myself every day as I work with my clients and scan the news and blog reports. Today I came across some best practice information including statistics on "send to a friend" (the November 2 post) for online retailers. Although this is a great way to build your email list, many emailers aren't using it yet, and those that are don't always have the process down pat yet. By the way, in case you didn't know it, Email Analyst has shown a direct correlation between email sends and web traffic.
Monday, November 06, 2006
One of the things I hear people say most often is that they don't have enough email addresses for email marketing, aren't happy with the current size of their list, and don't know how to grow their list. Lisbuilding is a hot topic, with many articles available; here's a great article on collecting addresses online that's part of a tutorial on "Internet Based Moms." Another important part of listbuilding strategy is collecting addressed offline. A strategy should be in place for collecting addresses constantly, both online and offline. The holidays is a great season to build lists offline, since you will undoubtedly be running into a lot of potential and existing customers at parties. So if you've been waiting, now is as good a time as ever to get started with your email marketing efforts!
Wednesday, November 01, 2006
Amazing statistics reported in the DMA's latest research report on direct marketing (available here), in the words of Bill McCloskey, CEO of Email Data Source:
The ROI for e-mail marketing was $57.25 for every dollar spent. The ROI of all non-e-mail-related online marketing was $22.52, less than half. And yet marketers only spent around $300 million on e-mail marketing efforts, compared to $12 billion for non-e-mail-related marketing--$12 billion to get a return that is less than half of what can be achieved in e-mail.
We also know that the return on e-mail is much higher for companies that segment their e-mail marketing offers, so the $57.25 is really just a drop in the bucket compared to what the ROI potential is for e-mail.
We also know that, especially for retail, e-mail is considered the largest demand-generating medium for online retailers.
So where is the disconnect: e-mail provides over twice the ROI, but companies now invest only 02.5% of what they put into other Internet marketing channels? Someone is getting taken for a ride.
Monday, October 23, 2006
Here's something else I stumbled across again today on Spamhaus, their definition of "Closed loop opt-in," which I like:
With Closed-Loop Opt-in the Recipient has verifiably confirmed permission for the address to be included on the specific mailing list, by confirming (responding to) the list subscription request verification. This is the standard practice for all Internet mailing lists, it ensures users are properly subscribed from a working address and with the address owner's consent.
In case anyone missed this article in my delicious links, here's a great clip from a Mediapost article entitled "You're invited to email's coming out party - Again!" from June 20 that I particularly like:
Today's e-mail is not the e-mail you used to know. Today's e-mail has emerged as the cornerstone of digital media and digital relationships--and is now the way that over 60 million people communicate with their friends and family on a daily basis.
E-mail has become much more than a commoditized messaging platform; it is the glue that bonds the customer to the brand in a digital world. Ninety-five percent of companies who market use e-mail as a key marketing vehicle. If your company is not using e-mail in a strategic manner, or does not recognize that EVERY e-mail you send or respond to is an opportunity to deliver on the promise of your brand, you are clearly missing the party.
In the new world of e-mail, there are seven key strategic elements that need to be considered when planning a program or campaign:
1. Your growth and maintenance plans for your prospect e-mail database. 2. Your opt-in methodology and early engagement strategy. 3. Your e-mail "promise" and the way the brand is represented. 4. Your header information and deliverability score and reputation. 5. "Above the fold" placement of imagery that drives action and use of relevant content. 6. The Web site/landing page engagement flow and interaction. 7. The strategy for integrating the precious content in your e-mails with other digital media: blogs, rss feeds and communities.
Monday, October 16, 2006
I have had a lot of people ask why it's necessary to be so strict with permission. At Innucopia we are very strict with permission, and require that Addemar is used only for sending mails to recipients that have already given permission to receive the correspondence in question. Addemar is for building and maintaining relationships with customers. We believe permission is a matter of respect to your customers, as well as a matter of following best practices that are in place to ensure that your messages continue to be delivered and not blocked.
In our experience there's just no benefit in cutting corners. If you are a legitimate business accused of email spamming and blacklisted, ISPs may choose to block all email from your company, not just bulk. It's not so easy to move your whole company website in that case, plus it's horrible for your brand. Sending out unsolicited bulk email is not illegal as long as the CAN-SPAM guidelines are followed, but companies should seriously consider if it's worth the risk to entertain this strategy. I for one would never do business with a company that sent me unsolicited bulk email for which I did not first provide permission; I know I'm not alone in my distaste for this type of email. And even if you follow all the legal rules, customers can still blacklist you, perhaps because you're mailing them too frequently or otherwise dropping the ball. Companies have to consider not only legalities and best practices, but also the preferences of the customers.
As Bill Nussey put it in The Quiet Revolution in Email Marketing, "Permission is the tool that turns prospects into customers, and customers into lifelong customers." And today, TRUSTe and Epsilon released a nice whitepaper on the subject.
In our experience there's just no benefit in cutting corners. If you are a legitimate business accused of email spamming and blacklisted, ISPs may choose to block all email from your company, not just bulk. It's not so easy to move your whole company website in that case, plus it's horrible for your brand. Sending out unsolicited bulk email is not illegal as long as the CAN-SPAM guidelines are followed, but companies should seriously consider if it's worth the risk to entertain this strategy. I for one would never do business with a company that sent me unsolicited bulk email for which I did not first provide permission; I know I'm not alone in my distaste for this type of email. And even if you follow all the legal rules, customers can still blacklist you, perhaps because you're mailing them too frequently or otherwise dropping the ball. Companies have to consider not only legalities and best practices, but also the preferences of the customers.
As Bill Nussey put it in The Quiet Revolution in Email Marketing, "Permission is the tool that turns prospects into customers, and customers into lifelong customers." And today, TRUSTe and Epsilon released a nice whitepaper on the subject.
Saturday, October 07, 2006
More evidence of the fact that email marketing is not going away...the DMA recently release results from a study that showed that, despite many problems with spam, email marketing volume has increased by 30%.
Friday, October 06, 2006
Email has a long way to go as a marketing tool, not only from early adopters with the time and manpower to small organizations with limited resources, but also as a more and more strategically aligned concern. Interesting snippet today talking about some of the ways that companies can think about evolving their email marketing program.
Tuesday, October 03, 2006
"If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything." --Dr. Emmett L. Brown (Back to the Future)
"The world is flat." --Thomas L. Friedman
I'm a firm believer in the former (plus I love the trilogy), and I believe the latter is making it more and more possible for individuals to accomplish amazing things even with limited resources. This is part of the reason Innucopia provides information about "tools" that businesses can use to get up there with the big guys.
There's always a downside however. We must be vigilant and keep an eye out for the bottom-dwellers. As a specialist in permission-based email marketing, I cannot find an explanation as to why anyone would send spam when it's so much smarter and more effective, and probably no more costly, to send permission-based emails. I for one will never do business with a company that contacts me via spam (unless they want to turn over a new leaf of course). There is unfortunately not only spam to watch out for; there was a good article recently about all the scams out there that are looking to exploit people who want to work at home or otherwise broaden their horizons, and all the scams to watch out for.
"The world is flat." --Thomas L. Friedman
I'm a firm believer in the former (plus I love the trilogy), and I believe the latter is making it more and more possible for individuals to accomplish amazing things even with limited resources. This is part of the reason Innucopia provides information about "tools" that businesses can use to get up there with the big guys.
There's always a downside however. We must be vigilant and keep an eye out for the bottom-dwellers. As a specialist in permission-based email marketing, I cannot find an explanation as to why anyone would send spam when it's so much smarter and more effective, and probably no more costly, to send permission-based emails. I for one will never do business with a company that contacts me via spam (unless they want to turn over a new leaf of course). There is unfortunately not only spam to watch out for; there was a good article recently about all the scams out there that are looking to exploit people who want to work at home or otherwise broaden their horizons, and all the scams to watch out for.
Friday, September 15, 2006
Excellent MarketingSherpa article today talking about the high popularity of voice-over powerpoint online video presentations. This is a great tool and something that should be possible for any company at a good price. I'm going to be exploring some tools for this kind of thing...more to come!
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